Series/Parallel wiring

[MUzzY]

Uuu, sad ce da krene...

[Dersu Uzala]

Bitno je da su oni srafovi sto vire iz magneta, tzv pole-pieces, u jednom single coil magnetu obrnuto orijentisani od srafova iz drugog single coil magneta. Ovi srafovi su jezgra. Kad im obrnes magnetne polove, a u istom su elektricnom kolu, otklone oni sum, ali to je opet kvantna elektronika.

Srafovi su obicni metalni srafovi, a jezgro je ono oko njih na sta se motaju navoji i ono je namagnetisano.
Pritom, svi srafovi su isto orjentisani, ali je jedno jezgro polarisano obrnuto, ali su takodje i namotaji motani kontra da bi krajnji rezultat bio da indukovana struja tece istim smerom u oba namotaja. Da i namotaji nisu obrnuti, dobio bi "music canceling pickup", sto kad malo razmislim, u nekim slucajevima i ne bi bilo tako lose.
A sve to srecom nema neke veze sa kvantnom elektronikom inace bih se verovatno iz ovih stopa ostavio gitare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_electronics

Mislim, ne bih se ja mesao, ali kad se bavis inzenjeringom, moras da budes ultra precizan po cenu da te niko ne razume sem drugih inzenjera.

Evo sinko, precizno, samo za tebe.

Delovi standardnog gitarskog elektricnog magneta sa individualnim kalemovima komada 6 (u elektricnom smislu):

Single coil
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1) stalni (permeabilni) magnet
2) 6 magnetnih jezgara
3) bakarna zica namotana oko ovih magnetnih jezgara

2) i 3) zajedno cine 'kalem' po naski ili 'coil' po engleski. 2) je u dodiru sa 1) cime se postize da magnetna jezgra budu namagnetisana, jelda.

Humbucker
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4) jos jedan kalem ili ti coil iliti extra par 2) i 3)

U humbuckeru ima znaci 12 magnetnih jezgara, od kojih su najcesce 6 adjustable, tojest mogu se podesavati ili direktno u starijim modelima iz pedesetih ili obicnim metalnim srafom koji je usrafljen u svako od 6 magnetnih jezgara (pretpostavljam da si za ove srafove tvrdio da su obicni, i slazem se, ali to nije deo elektricne nego mehanicke konstrukcije, nevermind). Bilo kako bilo, i ti obicni srafovi su usrafljeni u magnetna jezgra, cime se ista podizu ili spustaju. U jednom kalemu (coil ili plocica fizicki) jezgra dodiruju Severni pol stalnog magneta montiranog ispod kalemova, u drugom dodiruju Juzni pol. Znaci kalemovi su reversno polarisani. Kalemovi najcesce NISU motani u obrnutom smeru, nema potrebe, morao bi da imas dve masine ili da menjas smer izmedju posla. Kalemovi su motani u istom smeru, ali kad jezgra dodiruju suprotne polove stalnog magneta a kalemovi se POVEZU na pravilan nacin, dobijes kao proizovd RW-RP (Reverse Wound/Reverse Polarity) pickup iliti humbucker. A humbucker je upravo zato sto iako kalemovi nisu motani u suprotnom smeru, elektricno su spojeni u kolo na takav nacin da upravo provode struju u obrnutom smeru, nikako u istom junacino. Onda se kao zbir dobije signal koji je u protivfazi (tojest fazno pomeren za 180 stepeni) ciji je krajnji proizvod - hum cancelling iliti suzbijanje suma.

Znaci:
a) kalemovi nisu motani u suprtonom smeru, samo su povezani na odgovarajuci nacin.
b) jezgra imaju reversni polaritet
b) struja putuje u obrnutim direkcijama kroz namotaje (kriticno)

Pre pojave humbuckera, Fender je motao srednji magnet na Stratu u reversnom smeru, ali se to otada retko radi. Sa humbuckerima prakticno nikad, there's no point.

Ilustracija:



Further reading:

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/I ... /RWRP.aspx


Primer:



Objasnjenje:

Do you notice anything strange about the way the magnet has been magnetized (polarized) ? If you recall your grade school science classes, remember those 6 inch metal bar magnets with 'N' for North and 'S' for South stamped on the ends? Notice that the magnet in the drawing has its polarity on its edges instead of on its ends? There are 2 reasons for this. The first reason has nothing to do with humbucking properties but it is nonetheless interesting to know.
The magnetic strength remains constant from one end of the magnet to the other for both the top and bottom coil. The weakest part of the magnetic field runs horizontally through the middle of the magnet. This permits all 6 guitar strings to have the same volume, otherwise the inner strings (D & G) would have much less volume than the outer strings. (Also, to make the pickup louder for all strings, vertical metal bars (not shown) are attached to the 2 edges to bring the magnetic field closer to the strings.)

Another reason for polarizing the edges instead of the ends is to allow each coil to have opposite magnetic polarities. This is one of the requirements for making a humbucking pickup.


The other requirement for a humbucking pickup is that the coils are reverse wired in relation to one another. Actually, this is a misnomer. If you look at the graphic, you'll see the top coil starts out at the center and the wire then is wound clockwise. The bottom coil also starts out at the center and then the wire is wound clockwise. So, if both coils are wound clockwise, how are they reverse wired ? It is in the manner in which the pickups are wired to each other.


Let's follow the flow of electricity from the start of the top coil. Electrons move from the center and proceed clockwise to the outside of the coil and finish at the blue arrow. They then proceed to the finish of the bottom coil and proceed counter-clockwise to the start of the bottom coil. So, you can see that it is not necessary to have the coils physically wired in opposite directions. It is only necessary to wire them so that the electricity flows through the two coils in different directions.



Toliko, omladinac, ziv bio . Pozdrav od chiche.

[Dersu Uzala]

Uuu, sad ce da krene...

Evo, zavrsio.

Uzgred, preleteo sam okom na neki clanak u vezi magneta na wikipediji, i zesce se nalupetase likovi tamo. Sa slike ozgo, i iz artikla okacenog kao link , koji razmatra originalnu Gibson/Seth Lover konstrukciju humbuckera, jasno se vidi da se struja u kalemovima krece u suprotnom smeru. Which only makes sense.

[cccira]

[Šalamala]Ako cemo precizno onda samo jedna mala ispravka: ne postoje severni i juzni pol magneta [/šalamala]

[Dersu Uzala]

Nego? Do tell, niko se naucen nije rodio .

[dweezil]

@Dersu kad si objasnjavao single-coil naveo si atipican primer keramickog single-coila koji ima i taj stalni - permeabilni magnet sa donje strane. Inace ako chaprimo o klasicnim alnico single-coil pickupima oni imaju samo dva dela koja si spomenuo:

- alnico polepieces tj. 6 magnetnih jezgara
- bakarna zica namotana okolo

[Mancha]

A humbucker je upravo zato sto iako kalemovi nisu motani u suprotnom smeru, elektricno su spojeni u kolo na takav nacin da upravo provode struju u obrnutom smeru, nikako u istom junacino. Onda se kao zbir dobije signal koji je u protivfazi (tojest fazno pomeren za 180 stepeni) ciji je krajnji proizvod - hum cancelling iliti suzbijanje suma.

To sto si ti opisao bi bio pickup koji bi na izlazu izbacivao nista, jer kada je signal u protivfazi, zbir je 0. Preporucujem Osnove Elektrotehnike 2 kao dalju literaturu po tom pitanju.

A evo kratko i jasno:
How humbuckers work

In any magnetic pickup, a vibrating soft-magnetic guitar string induces an alternating current in its coil(s). However, magnetic coils also make excellent antennas and are therefore sensitive to electromagnetic interference caused by mains wiring (mains hum) and electrical appliances like transformers, motors, and computer screens. Guitar pickups pick up this noise, which can be quite audible, sounding like a constant hum or buzz.
A humbucker has two coils with opposing windings and polarities. The string motion induces current in both coils in the same direction, since the reverse winding and reversed phase of one coil create a signal in the same direction as the other coil. Electromagnetic interference, on the other hand, induces current in opposing directions in each coil because it is only sensitive to the winding direction, which is reversed for one coil. When the signals from both pickups are summed together, the noise is cancelled due to destructive interference, while the actual signal is increased due to constructive interference, thus dramatically improving the signal-to-noise ratio. This technique is called common-mode rejection by electrical engineers, and is also used in balanced lines in audio recording.

[cccira]

Nego? Do tell, niko se naucen nije rodio .

Pa to juzni/severni pol je zaostavstina vremena kada se mislilo da postoje magnetski dipoli (zbog slicnosti sa poljem elektricnog dipola), pa se shprdam na racun toga

[Dersu Uzala]

To sto si ti opisao bi bio pickup koji bi na izlazu izbacivao nista, jer kada je signal u protivfazi, zbir je 0. Preporucujem Osnove Elektrotehnike 2 kao dalju literaturu po tom pitanju.

A evo kratko i jasno:
How humbuckers work

In any magnetic pickup, a vibrating soft-magnetic guitar string induces an alternating current in its coil(s). However, magnetic coils also make excellent antennas and are therefore sensitive to electromagnetic interference caused by mains wiring (mains hum) and electrical appliances like transformers, motors, and computer screens. Guitar pickups pick up this noise, which can be quite audible, sounding like a constant hum or buzz.
A humbucker has two coils with opposing windings and polarities. The string motion induces current in both coils in the same direction, since the reverse winding and reversed phase of one coil create a signal in the same direction as the other coil. Electromagnetic interference, on the other hand, induces current in opposing directions in each coil because it is only sensitive to the winding direction, which is reversed for one coil. When the signals from both pickups are summed together, the noise is cancelled due to destructive interference, while the actual signal is increased due to constructive interference, thus dramatically improving the signal-to-noise ratio. This technique is called common-mode rejection by electrical engineers, and is also used in balanced lines in audio recording.

Prvo, kratko i jasno, rekoh da wikipedija lupeta.

Drugo, nisi prostudirao bas ponudjen materijal:

"Bill Lawrence has a patent drawing from the 1830s showing a device with two coils, where their opposing current direction resulted in hum-cancellation. But it wasn’t until the mid 1950s that this concept was applied to guitar pickups, and the result was the Gibson PAF (Patent Applied For) pickup, first produced in 1955.

Gibson used two coils for this pickup, and while both were wound in the same direction, they were wired together so as to have opposite current flow. They shared a single magnet, with one coil’s polepieces (steel slugs) in contact with the north pole of the magnet, and the other coil’s polepieces (adjustable screws) in contact with the south pole. You can see the magnet in the illustration below – it is magnetized such that the magnetic poles are at the long edges.

This resulted in a hum-canceling pickup, or “humbucker.” Combining two coils together in such a way that they had a) reversed current flow, and b) reversed magnetic polarity, producing a pickup that cancelled much of the hum. Taken individually, either coil would have produced the 60-cycle hum you might expect. But wired together in the right configuration, the hum was virtually eliminated.

It should be noted that this trick works regardless of whether the coils are connected together in series or parallel, so it’s an especially good trick. It also works with any two coils, by the way. Combine two coils together, where one is reverse-wound and reverse-polarity relative to the other, and you will have some degree of hum-canceling, due to phase cancellation. However, two coils with the same number of windings, and with equal magnet strength, will provide a greater amount of hum-canceling than two coils that are dissimilar.

And there is the definition of RWRP: a coil that is Reverse-Wound, and Reverse- Polarity, relative to the coil it’s being combined with. Of course, it’s a little bit of a misnomer, since the coil doesn’t actually have to be reverse-wound; it just needs to be connected in such a way that its current flow is opposite that of its partner. Perhaps RCF-RP would be a better term. But that’s just silly."




Trece, naravno da je zbir dva signala iste amplitude a protivfaze blizak ili jednak nuli. Zato se i koristi ovaj princip. Ono sto nisam nacrtao ali je nadam se jasno da pricamo o dve komponente signala. Jednu indukuje okolno eletromagnetno polje putem raznih izvora EM zracenja, i posto to EM zracenje udara direktno u kalemove kroz koji se fizicki struja krece u razlicitim pravcima, u svakom kalemu je ovaj interferentni signal u protivfazi sa onim drugim, zato se i kaceluje. Signal indukovan promenom magnetnog fluksa (okidanjem zice) ima drukciju putanju struje (current path) i on vidi oba magneta povezana u fazi. Sa stanovista elektrona indukovanog putem fluksiranja magnetnog polja, sve je spojeno u fazi. Spomenuh ti ranije, kad imas dva kalema, pa jednom obrnes samo magnetni polaritet, dobices promenu u fazi od 180 stepeni. Kad im obrnes i smer protoka struje (ovo sto ti insistiras na reversnom motanju koje kazem nije potrebno, samo se spoji drugi magnet kako treba) dobices jos jedan fazni pomeraj od 180 stepeni. Ukupno 180 + 180 = 360 = 0, nema faznog pomeraja koji bi video elektron u samom elektricnom kolu. Faza je pomerena samo za interferentni signal iz etera jer on fizicki vidi dva kola u kojima fizicki struja putuje u drugom smeru, posmatrajuci trodimenzionalni prostor.


Ne kazem da sam neki edukator, ali mi nije jasno sta ti konkretno nije jasno. Nemoj da se pozivas na wikipediju molim te, niti na udzbenik, nego konkretno, sta je ovde problem? Ima materijala po netu gde originalni konstruktori razlgabaju o svemu ovome nasiroko, pa daj neki link (samo ako nema ama bas nikakvih relevantnih izvora podataka, ja licno iz zajebancije citiram wikipediju).

[dejankuki]

Ajde sad.... gde su ljudi iz marketiga da objasne ovo... i da nam ovo treba vise nego 'lebac...

Jel tako Dersu...?

[dweezil]

@Dersu a nisi dobro objasnio za single coile, nema nikakav permeabilni magnet ispod, polepieces su ti koji su magnet, ovde mislim na alnico singlove. Cccc razocarao si me da ne znas osnovne stvari jbt

[Dersu Uzala]

Ajde sad.... gde su ljudi iz marketiga da objasne ovo... i da nam ovo treba vise nego 'lebac...

Jel tako Dersu...?

Pardon? Bojim se da te nisam bas najbolje razumeo .

[Mancha]

Da ne offtopicujemo vise, reagovao sam samo zato sto si se u prvom postu pozvao na "inzinjersku preciznost" ispravljajuci Rocket-a, a tvoj post je bio sve sem precizan. Procitaj ga ponovo, pa ces videti.

A Muzzy, ako te zanima prakticna razlika u zvuku izmedju series/paralell wiring-a, svrati, ili cu ja da svratim, pa da probas i sam.

[Dersu Uzala]

@Dersu a nisi dobro objasnio za single coile, nema nikakav permeabilni magnet ispod, polepieces su ti koji su magnet, ovde mislim na alnico singlove. Cccc razocarao si me da ne znas osnovne stvari jbt

To uopste nije tacno. Vecina izvedbi istorijski ima permeabilni magnet. Fenderovi single coils, bilo originalni bilo kasnije. Mozes da napravis bez problema single coil tako kako kazes, samo da su pole pieces u stvari jedini magneti, tojest ti stalni magneti. Razlog zasto se najcesce pravise (unazad 40-50 godina) pickup-ovi sa stalnim magnetom negde u bazi kucista je sto je permeabilan magnet bilo jako tesko obraditi svojevremeno industrijski, pogotovu u velikim kolicinama, a da imaju odredjen oblik kako to dizajn gitarskog pickupa ali i drugih uredjaja zahteva. Mnogo je teze i skuplje u procesu proizvodnje napraviti stalni magnet valjkastog (cilindricnog) oblika nego plocicu kakva se najcesce koristi. Onda se na tu plocicu montiraju pole-pieces od mekog gvozdja najcesce, koje je lako obraditi. Ti pole-pieces se onda montiraju da dodiruju stalni magnet i time se i sami namagnetisu. Danas to vec nije toliki problem. Ali vecina single coil magneta proizvedenih u istoriji covecanstva, velika vecina tih single coils imaju plocicu. Jer velika vecina su i napravljeni izmedju 1940 i 1990. Kazem, danas to i nije big deal.

Mogu i da ti pokazem ne jednu, nego masu slika oridjidji Fenderovih strat magneta iz perioda 1954 pa nadalje i videceh da prakticno svi imaju stalni magnet u bazi. I naravno, AlNiCo medju njima bez problema. Nego drug si mi, pa nisam hteo da ti kontriram .

[Dersu Uzala]

Da ne offtopicujemo vise, reagovao sam samo zato sto si se u prvom postu pozvao na "inzinjersku preciznost" ispravljajuci Rocket-a, a tvoj post je bio sve sem precizan. Procitaj ga ponovo, pa ces videti.

Cenim da nije offtopic, jer ipak nekako prosiruje temu, i kada covek pokusava da se opredeli za series/parallel, zgodno je da unpared zna sta bi time mogao dobiti, ergo zgodno je da zna princip, ako ne u detalje ono bar vizualno u glavi.

Sto se tice tvoje konstatacije o 'inzenjerskoj prezicnosti' slazem se. Mogu ja to sve i preciznije. Zahteva malo vise vremena, ali ono bitnije, ranije sam pisao traktate pa su me drugari zamolili 'to keep it short and to the point'. Inace samo preskoce post, bez problema.

Sto se tice Rocketa, on i ja smo skontali da je bio 'lapsus calami'. Pomerili smo se sa teme odavno.

Ono sto je najbitnije ovoga trenutka je da se svi slazemo oko gore navedenih principa, a ja se izvinjavam jos jednom za svoju 'inzenjersku ne-preciznost' .